The Road to God
Posted by Justin on May 8, 2009
I am starting a step by step case for the existence of the God of the Bible called The Road to God. I plan on using several arguments and evidences for God and any help you could offer would be much appreciated. Christians can offer suggestions and atheists I would love to know your objections so I can know where I need to more fully develop the case. It is a continuous work in progress. As of this post, I have given the argument from design and information and I am starting on the argument of the first cause.
morsec0de said
I’m curious. Does this mean I can start a blog called “All About Christianity”?
Justin said
Yeah, you could do the atheist perspective of Christianity like I do the Christian perspective of atheism. I don’t see why not…
theBEattitude said
Here are a few things:
Refute the countless contradictory stories and teachings. Explain the many evil laws and the horrible mistreatment of women. Explain the justification of slavery, the killing of homosexuals, death for working on the Sabbath, death for dishonoring your parents, death for a rape victim because they did not scream loud enough for help, etc. Why many nations and civilizations were slaughtered by god’s command including children and babies, but virgins were kept as sexual slaves.
But most of all, explain why an infinitely powerful god would be vain enough to kill people for using his name in vain and require bloody animal sacrifice and eventually a horrific human sacrifice as a ransom payment to earn his forgiveness. And why this completely invisible god would throw people into a place of eternal suffering when he gives them no reason to acknowledge his existence. His only source for us to believe is an archaic and primitive book written by people who thought the earth was flat and stars were little lights in the sky?
Lastly, why is your god real and every other thousands of gods false? Because the Bible tells you so?
Tom said
the best place to start is the beginning, answers in Genesis, and Creation Science have some excellent articles on creation as well as the flood. I am actually putting together a powerpoint for kids/teens to combat the lies they learn in school. A lot of information comes from those two sites, as well as CARM. You’ll always get people who don’t care, and will never see. But worthy to be presented for those who honestly seek the truth.
God Bless
Tom said
BeAttitude: you said Refute the countless contradictory stories and teachings. I don’t know if this is what you’re referring to or not, but have you looked at this? http://contenderministries.org/discrepancies/contradictions.php#1
When you were a kid “Beattitude” did you get in trouble fo rthings? Why? Because your parents told you not to do it. you chose however to disobey them, and do it anyway. Thats what you’re doing in this case, choosing to be disobediant to God.. it’s not Him thats killing you, you’re killing yourself.
you have every reason to acknowldge his existence, did the sun come up this morning? if so then it shined it’s light upon creation, you simply choose not to see it. you choose to beleive the ramblings of a backslidden “scientist” who said we all came from a blop in the ocean.
His only source for us to believe is an archaic and primitive book written by people who thought the earth was flat and stars were little lights in the sky? actually you’re wrong here, the bible says (I think in Psalms) that the earth was hung on nothing (at a time when SCIENCE thought it rested on an animals back) the Bible says the earth moves around the sun, and a time when SCIENCE thought it was the opposite, and yes the Bible says the earth is round, at a time when SCIENCE said it was flat.
Tom said
may have actually been in Job where the bible states about the earth, I am at work and unable to look it up.. (sorry)
Chris said
C’mon Tom, be serious –
Places where the Bible says the Sun moves and not the Earth – Joshua 10:12-13, Ecclesiastes 1:5.
The Earth doesn’t move – Chronicles 16:30, Psalms 93:1
It has a foundation – Psalms 18:15, Proverbs 8:27-29, Isaiah 48:13
Earth is flat – Job 28:24, Daniel 4:10-11, Isaiah 40:22
There are more examples, but this should suffice – Lastly, the Bible never uses the word sphere or globe even though these words existed at the time it was written – As in the last example from Isiah 40:22, the word that’s used more often than not is circle.
Myles said
The bible certainly condones slavery. s
“Let slaves regard their masters as worthy of all honor.” Matthew 10:24
Tom said
hmm, i just looks at one of your verses how does this say the earth is flat?
for he views the ends of the earth
and sees everything under the heavens.
(this is saying God knows all and sees all)
I’ll look up the others as well, but you’ll have to do better than this.
Tom said
uh oh…
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
“above the CIRCLE of the earth” circles are still round? right?
Tom said
12 On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel:
“O sun, stand still over Gibeon,
O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on [a] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.
The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day.
all this means is the sun didn’t change position in the sky. this doesn’t mean the sun moves around the earth Chris.
Myles said
The bible certainly condones slavery. s
“Let slaves regard their masters as worthy of all honor.” Matthew 10:24
I thought it bore repeating.
Tom said
trying to evoke a response Myles? I’ll bite, the claim is so absurd it doesn’t bear repeating.
Myles said
Absurd? The text seems very clear to me. And there are plenty of examples where the bible seems to condone slavery.
Joel 3:8 God warns that, “I will sell your sons and your daughters to the Judians, and they shall in turn sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off.”
so much for family values.
here is a link with more examples with direct quotes from the bible.
http://www.inu.net/skeptic/slavery.html
The bible is much more clear in condoning slavery it is funny how selective Christians are regarding which parts of the text they will follow and which parts they shall ignore.
I dont want a emotional response. I want you to explain why the bible extorts slaves to obey their masters in many instances.
Justin said
Myles, I will not ignore what the Bible talks about slavery. Here is an honest response to the issue: http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-slavery.html
Justin said
By the way, if you think of the stereotypical completely bad form of slavery, the Bible is of course against it. Look at the 10 Commandments:
1) Keep God first. If you are a horrible slave owner, God is not first in your life.
2) Don’t have a false God: If you are a horrible slave owner, you probably don’t have the correct view of God.
3) Don’t misuse the name of God: If you are a horrible slave owner and claim to be a serveant of God, you drag God’s name through the mud.
5) Honor your parents: If you are a horrible slave owner, you bring shame to your family name.
6) Do not murder/hate: If you are a horrible slave owner, you probably harbour hatred.
8 ) Do not steal: If you are a horrible slave owner, you take what doesn’t rightfully belong to you.
10) Do not covet: If you are a horrible slave owner, you likely desire what doesn’t rightfully belong to you.
Tom said
Here’s a thought
Myles… have you read the Bible? I mean sat down and really read the word of God? it contains all the answers you need. if you have read it, i do spologize – honestly i feel quite a few people just copy and paste arguments simply to argue. while this may or may not be you, don’t take someone else’s word for what it says.. read the Bible in context and your questions will be answered.
half the time spent here is arguing, and for what purpose? are these honest questions Myles or designed only to lead into a deeper discussion on whether the Bible condoned slavery, which will lead into racism, then into no one knows what else…. red herrings, purple squirrels, what ever you want to call it… all this does is distract from the truth.
Trust me every contradiction, question, concern, or contrary thought you have about the Bible can, and has been answered.
Tom said
the text seems clear to you? please interpret this.
“you can’t put to much water in a nuclear reactor”
does it mean – if you put to much in something bad will happen?
or does it mean – put in as much as you want, no bad things will occur?
however if I said be careful with the amount of water being put in the reactor, because to much will affect the cooling of the rods and they make cool to much and not produce any energy, there by creating higher heating blah blah blah… ending with that sentence….
you’d know exactly what I meant…
context. read it yourself, don’t search for contradictions, because they’ve all got answers, come back with HONEST questions dude. research the answers given and be ready if they don’t go with your view… contrary to popular belief.. it’s not about you.
Myles said
Justin, I read the link you posted and the main point it seems to express is that slavery was not as severe of an institution in bibilical days. and that you have to understand the cultural unit, in this case slavery, as a product of the time and place that it occurs in. Which ties in somewhat with Toms assertion that you must read the texts in context.
FIrst let me say that I agree with both of these points. What I do not understand however is why these points are rarely applied to other controversial topics by Christians themselves.
I want to compare and contrast this issue of slavery with the issue of gay sexuality to narrow the focus and because the issue has obvious importance to me.
If you can say that the institution of slavery has changed in the past 2,000 years then one must admit that what it means to be a gay person has undergone a radical change as well. We are not the sexual deviants that surrounded Lot’s family and demanded that his guests be made available for rape. We are tax paying, educated members of society that are just as capable of having a stable relationship and adopting children as straight people.
Now you might say, having sex with a man is having sex with a man, it doesnt matter that 2000 years have passed. Well then owning another person as property is the same then.
The bible makes many more references regarding the proper owning and behavior of slaves then it does condeming gay people but most chrisitans these days are against gay marriage and also against slavery.
It wasnt always so though. During Civil War times, many religious leaders used the bible to justify slavery.
Now I want to make one thing clear, I have no problem with peoples beliefs as long as they dont try to legislate it.
Right now by partner of over a year is driving to his job in jackson, if he were to get in the car crash I would have no right to see him in the hospital thanks to all the laws passed banning gay marrige. Where is the love and compassion in that?
I know it can be hard to answer every point and truly correspond so I will just ask that you answer just this one question.
1. How can you claim that all the references condoning slavery are either taken out of context or misunderstood due to differnces in culture yet take the (much fewer) condemnations of homosexuality at face value?(that is assuming in fact you do feel this way of course)
Myles said
Ive done a little more reasearch and I have yet to find any definition of the word chimera that mean what the author of that link seemed to think it means.
I guess until I am shown a modern day example of a chimera(in that sense of the word) then I will have to assume that he is making stuff up.
Myles said
Woops i meant to post this in in the evolution thread. I will repost in the appropriate spot but I am very eager to hear to a reply to my earlier post as well.
Justin said
Myles, I understand homosexual feelings. I know that there are people born with a greater tendeancy toward homosexuality just as people are born with a tendancy toward other behavior. This is a result of the fall of mankind and sin. So how can I remove all of the cultural issues on this matter? I can go to the beginning of mankind before there was multiple cultures established and I see that the plan of God was for a man and a woman. Once cultures were established, the Bible still is clear on the issue. It is not like slavey where we may wonder why God did not specifically outlaw it (though certain types of slavery is outlawed as I showed with the 10 Commandments). This is an issue where I take a statement from God in the Bible and see how it applies regardless of my culture. This is not a civil or ceremonial matter. It is a moral matter. Moral matters go across all lines.
Myles, I believe you and everyone else can come to God as they are. God loves them too much to let them stay that way. He can help you with every area of your life.
On a legal perspective, I don’t think we need to stop hospital visits, but that doesn’t mean marriage is the answer. I have considered marriage being a good thing in that it might reduce the number of partners a homosexual may have. Regardless, i don’t want to talk logistics and law. I just want to talk about atheism and faith.
Myles said
With all due respect Justin, since my personal life is intimately affected by legislation brought about, for the most part, by fundamentalist Christians, I am unable to fully extricate issues of faith, legality, and logistics from my personal life.
You say that you can look back to mankind before it became diveresified into many cultures. I disagree that a fundamentalist reading of the bible is a accurate source to glean the (pre)history of mankind. If you can say that god obviously didnt want people to be gay because he created one man and one woman then you must also agree that he expected mankind to be incestous since the only way that all of humanity could have been produced from two individuals is if incest was rampant.
You say that the bible is clear on homosexuality. I also disagree with this.
Leviticus says “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”
If you think that this verses cleary condemns gay people then do you also believe that we should be killed? If not then how can you take the first part of the sentence at face value then disregard the second?
And God did more than ” not specifically outlaw slavery” if the bible is correct.
Look at Deutoronomy 20:10-16″But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.”
In this verse god seems to command his followers to take the woman of children of their enemies as slaves. You say that your interpretation of the 10 commandments clearly prohibites “horrible” slavery. Isnt ANY ownership or trafficking in human beings horrible? This non-theist certainly thinks so.
Justin said
Myles, I can completely understand how you cannot seperate the issue from the legal side of the issue. All I meant is that it is outside the scope of this site’s main purpose. It is my hope that you will have every right another person has. Whether we should redefine marriage is an interesting issue and one I am sure is important. I just am not focusing on that.
I understand that you disagree with how the Bible describes Adam and Eve, but remember what your argument was saying. You said “How can you… take the condemnations of homosexuality [in the Bible] at face value?” You were not making a claim about homosexuality from outside the Bible at this time. You were trying to undo the claim that the Bible is strong on the homosexual issue. Since it was an argument from inside the Bible, it is perfectly right for me to argue the case of Adam and Eve from inside the Bible. If you want to discuss the case outside the Bible, that is all well and good. You just can’t take the pieces of both sides that you like. I hope you understand what I mean.
Leviticus was written with moral, ceremonial, and civil laws – the latter two being for Isreal/the Jewish people. It seems as we do not have several homosexual deaths recorded in the Jewish culture of that time that the law was respected then. Does God still care about the issue? Greatly! He still demands a punishment. About 2,000 years ago God the Son, Jesus, died for all sins. Today all can be forgiven and given a cew nature/become a new person. I do believe that someone has to die for the sin of homosexual behavior (and lying, heterosexual lust, hatred, etc.) and that person was Jesus. I do not disregard any part of scripture – I just make sure I know the who, what, when, where, and why of that particular scripture so we can apply it correctly.
Slavery did not originate in the Bible, but the Bible did regulate it. In fact, the word slavery in the Bible really has no modern equivelent. I certainly would not want to be a serveant to pay off debt (though I do in a way with my job) – but our culture has come up with another system. Is our system that includes laziness, a broken welfare system, and debt a better one? Probably, but I see through the lens of my culture and I’m willing to admit that. Modern day slavery the way we think of it is of course condemned by the commandments as I showed above earlier.
Myles said
Justin the reason that I think this is a germane discussion for this site is that so often people use their brand of theism as their main reason for opposing gay rights. I think this a salient point for the superiority of beliefs that are inclusive of the natural diversities of people, like Humanism.
I didnt mean to imply that you were wrong for using an ‘in bible argument’ just that I disagree that it is historically accurate. I would like to hear your response to my statement that if the creation of Adam and Eve was gods way of saying that homosexuality is wrong then it must also mean that incest is right.
So you say that Jesus died for my sins 2,000 years ago. I have a few problems with that.
1). How can the suffering of somebody else pay for the sins of somebody not even born yet? The logic defies me.
2). If god wanted to remove the sin from mankind couldnt he have just snapped his fingers and done so? Why did he have to subject his son to suffering if he is almighty?
3). So Jesus can make me a “new person” and make me heterosexual? interesting. If that is true then why does the ‘ex gay movement’ have such poor success?
You say that biblical concept of slavery has no modern equivilent? I agree but I also say that the biblical concept of homosexuality also is without modern equivilent. A sizable segment of biblical scholars think that the condemntations of homosexuality refer to homosexual temple prostitutes(like in romans 1) and homosexual rape (like genisis 19). How can you be so sure that your interpretation of things is the correct one when the language is archaic and obscure and the culture it was written in was so long ago?
I want young gay people to know that those special feelings of love and affections that they feel is not a sin like lying. I want them to know what makes them different is something that should be cherished not despised and they should never try to change that.To me that is one of the benifits of Humanism, we respect and value the whole human spectrum in all its wonderful diversity.
Justin said
Myles, feel free to discuss the legal side on the issue. I hope you see that I am open minded on the issue, yet prefer to not get loaded down with politics on this site.
As far as incest, you are correct. At the time of Adam and Eve relations between different family members was not forbidden (and of course necessary). As the population grew, the relationships that God forbade in the Old Testament Law are listed in Leviticus chapter 18, verses 6-18. In that passage, we are commanded not to marry a parent, a step-parent, a grandchild (and, understood, a grandparent), a sibling, a brother or sister of a parent (i.e., an aunt or uncle), or a half-sibling (http://www.gotquestions.org/close-relative-relationship.html).
I understand that it is amazing that God the Son, Jesus, could pay for sins past, present, and future, but it is possible. God is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and the end. On the cross, Jesus said “it is finished.” The payment for sin was paid in full. That gift that has been paid for can be received through faith.
As far as other ways God could have saved humanity, you have to remember the nature of God. This will be a crude illustration, but could you consume your own waste? There is nothing physically impossible about the act, but if you are like me – you could not do it. It goes against who you are. You would not do that. God, who holds to his standards perfectly, is both loving and just. His justice demands punishment and his love wants to rescue us. This is called the divine dilemma. For both to be satisfied, Jesus had to die and the wrath of God had to be poured out. Could Jesus have died another way? Sure, I suppose. Perhaps dying on the cross would help us immediately relate to the punishment Jesus took since we did not see the main punishment of Jesus receiving mankind’s sin and therefore God the Father’s wrath.
Let me seperate these two things. Can Jesus make you a new person? Absolutely! Can Jesus make a person heterosexual? Sure! Do these always come together in a way we would like? I do not think so. What God will do is give us a new nature with a new desire to want to do God’s will, but we still have the same past experiences. Our new nature will want to follow God which in turn means they do not want to lie, steal, and lust (homosexual or heterosexual). If a ministry’s goal is to “turn people straight”, I think they have ther wrong goal. The goal should be to see people saved and help them deal with their past. I understand homosexual desire and I believe this is how ministry should take place: We should allow people to come as they are and teach them the gospel. If someone is genuinely converted, they will have a new desire to follow God. Though the temptation may still be there, they will want to do what is right. Ministries may “fail” with certain people because either 1) the person was not genuinly saved, 2) the ministry had the wrong goal, or 3) out of frustration the person falls.
The view that homosexual acts are not dealt with the the Bible enough to be clear is a poor claim. If your desire really is to follow the Bible and you just think this homosexual issue has been misleading, then follow the rest of the Bible. Get saved. The rest of the Bible will fall into place and you will be able to know for sure what is true in eternity.
Myles said
Justin, obviously you dont have to talk about anything that you dont want to. I just wanted to point out that the personal is political(as they used to say in the 90s) and for those of us that are victims of a heterocentric society we can not seperate these isssues from each other or from discussions of religion.
How did the human race survive if it all sprang from just two people? Full-sibling or parent-child incest results in about 17% child mortality and 25% child disability, for a combined result of about 42% nonviable offspring. The nonviablity increases with each generation. Do an experiment…take 2 dogs and breed them together, then try to create a viable population using only their offspring. What do you think the result would be?
‘
And while yes, i do think that you are reasonably open minded regarding this issue I dont think your idea that gay people should seek inclusion into a predominately homophobic institutions, like most Christian churches is a good one. You may think that you are being compassionate in telling us to “find god and do what the bible says then naturally you will do the right thing” but you are just disguising the same old prejeduice in new clothing. The basic fact is the same you are telling people that a basic aspect of themselves is a sin. You say that “homosexual lust” is just as bad a heterosexual lust but is there any non sinful way to be in a homosexual relationship just like there is a heterosexual one? You are just teaching them to be ashamed on a more insidious level.
If there are any queer people reading this I want to tell them that they way they feel isnt wrong or a sin and to seek out inclusive churches like the Metropolitan Community Church or Humanist organisations, they have more respect for human diversity.
Justin said
Myles, when it comes to your statistics, that is for today. Today, over time, we have accumulated genetic defects as we wear down. You said it yourself: “The nonviablity increases with each generation.” We are de-evolving if you will. Today, two closely related people will likely carry the same defect and thus have a higher chance of the defect showing up in their child. Rewind back to Adam and Eve. They were made “very good” and would not have had the same genetic mistakes. As the population grew and the possibility for such mistakes rose as well, God then outlawed specific relationships.
As for homosexual behavior, I do not give it special treatment. I have lied and stolen before, making me a lying thief. What we do is the very essense of who we are. The actions we commit flow out of who we are. That includes homosexuality, yes, but a whole list of things as well. Since we are God’s Creation, He makes the rules. I am not standing over in judgement of the homosexual. In fact, I am not telling the homosexual to “become straight”. I believe for the most part that if you become a Christian, you will have the Holy Spirit to tell you what is right.
Finally, how we feel is not what determines moral behavior. Someone could get a lot of pleasure out of adultery, but that doesn’t make it right. One could get a rush from stealing, but that doesn’t make it right. In fact, we are a fallen creation with a bent towards sin. I am not surprised that things that are wrong could feel right. In fact, that is what I would expect according to the Bible.
Myles said
Justin where are you getting the information on the genetics of Adam and Eve? I know enough about the bible to know that it never alludes to any such thing and your information certainly has no basis in modern science. When I say the nonviablity increases with each generation I was referring to each generation produced with no new genetic material, not to each generation in particular. Do you have a sample of Adam and eves DNA or are you just making this up? Its funny that you believe in “deevolution” but not evolution. Would you mind explaining the process of this de-evolution?
You keep saying that you understand homosexual feelings, does this mean that you have felt them yourself?
It concerns me that you can say that you can understand these feelings then compare them to lying and stealing. Yes I completely understand that you were born to a culture that puts all of those behaviors in the same category, sin. But the differences between to two are huge. Lying and stealing are both actions of ill intent, either to deceive or to deprive someone out of something both come from a unkind aspect of humanity but being gay comes from the feelings of affection and tenderness that culmninate between and person and another person THAT THEY LOVE and therefore is infinately deeper and more vital to the person experiencing it.
I know that you are just saying what you have been taught is right and you truly think that you are helping when you extol us to go to a church, find god, then wait for the holy spirit to tell us what to do but the truth is that trying to find inclusion into a homophobic group can cause feelings of rejection and aleination on fundamental level and can have severe consequences.
And with studies showing that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender youth are 4 times as likely to kill themselves I find such advice very dangerous indeed.
Im including a link to a gay humanist website so any queer youth reading this can learn about a school of thought that does not equate such an intimate, loving aspect of themselves with sin.
http://www.pinktriangle.org.uk/glh/221/iheu.html
Justin said
Myles, no I do not have Adam’s DNA. The point was that these genetic problems build up, so naturally there would be less problems as you back up in time. Combine this with the fact that the Bible says his creation was very good and you get how I made the statement I did.
I understand how you are concerned that I compare a sin of homosexual behavior to that of other sins, because it is one that you are a part of. If it were not for Jesus, who knows how much sin I would be involved in? I know how hard it is for some of my homosexual friends. I know it is tough when I hear their stories. I denouce anyone who will not let you come to church as you are. God loves you as you are, but He loves you enough to not leave you that way.
I know you are saying what some people have told you is right, but the truth is in the scripture.
Myles said
Justin genetic disorders do not just get progressively worse for no reason. If there is breeding between two people that are closely related then ressesive traits are more likely to be expressed and that can have harmfull effects. You seem to be extrapolating a lot from the bibles words that creation was “very good”(according to your own myth Adam and eve betrayed god, that doesnt sound very good to me).
I have a question. If Adam and Eve were created perfect, with no genetic flaws then where did the ressisive genes that cause disease come from?
I just dont think that being gay is not sinful because I engage in it. I dont think being a Muslim is sinful either and im not a Muslim. And I will be the first to admit that I have my flaws, I just dont think that who i choose to love is one of them.
I think its important to study the similiarities between the opposition to gay marrige and miscengenation laws that were used to keep people from other races from getting married. Read what the judge presiding over Loving vs Virginia had to say about race mixing
“Almighty God created the races, white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”
People have been using religion as an excuse for their bigotry for ages.
You say that “god loves us to much not to let us(gays) stay that way” if that is true how come the ex-gay movement has such a terribly low rate of success(if any) in changing people straight? You think god would have changed more people if it were possible.
Justin said
I understand what you said about genetic disorders. The original DNA would have contained many many possibilities. As time went on, more and more recessive traits have appeared. As I sait earlier, “Today, over time, we have accumulated genetic defects as we wear down.” These negative traits would not have shown up as early as the children of Adam and Eve. As time passed and the earth’s population grew, God banned incest.
Now when I say that God will change the homosexual who turns to Christ, I am not saying He will “make them straight.” “Straight” typically means you find youself attracted to the opposite gender. I am not saying that God will make the homosexual “straight”. I think many so called ministries fail because this is their goal. I also think the failure rate is due to false conversions. Anyway, when one comes to Christ, that does not mean you will no longer be tempted (attracted) to a sin. It just means that you have been born again and want to please God. The homosexual who turns to Christ and is saved could have two possibilities that could occur: 1) God could take away the homosexual temptation all together or 2) God could allow the temptation to remain, but add the desire to follow God with the Holy Spirit’s help. I think that since number one is God’s power, we should focus on helping the Christian who is tempted toward homosexuallity overcome that desire if that is really what they want to do.
As for the comparison with marriage of different races, I think that is an unfair comparison.
Myles said
Justin, How did more and more recessive traits just show up? This isnt the way it works. You say “Today, over time, we have accumulated genetic defects as we wear down.” How did this happen? Your theory of gradual devolution simply does not coincide with modern science at all. I think its wrong for you to be saying these things as if they were established facts when they are neither mentioned in the bible nor are in agreement with science.
You go on to say
“Now when I say that God will change the homosexual who turns to Christ, I am not saying He will “make them straight.” “Straight” typically means you find youself attracted to the opposite genderI am not saying that God will make the homosexual “straight”. I think many so called ministries fail because this is their goal”
So obviously you think that being gay isnt something that somebody chooses to do because you do not think that it is possible for gay people to change and have sexual attraction to the opposite gender, even with the help of the ministries.
Isnt it cruel to try to get people to give up being gay when you think that it isnt possible for them to live a “normal” straight life? Will they live their lives alone or enter into a heterosexual relationship without being able to commit to it fully? Why would people be born with attraction to ones on gender(and not attraction to the opposite) if it were a sin?
As for my comparison to with miscegenation, do you mind explaining exactly what about it you find unfair? My only point is that Christians used their religion in both instances to oppose both same sex and opposite race marriages but I do think that we should be able to enter a legal relationship with any consenting adult that we choose to.
Justin said
As for the genetics, Answers in Genesis puts it this way: “When the first two people were created, they were perfect. Everything God made was “very good” (Genesis 1:31). That means their genes were perfect—no mistakes. But when sin entered the world because of Adam (Genesis 3:6), God cursed the world so that the perfect creation then began to degenerate, that is, suffer death and decay (Romans 8:22). Over a long period of time, this degeneration would have resulted in all sorts of mistakes occurring in the genetic material of living things.”
On homosexual ministries: First get saved, and you will see what I mean. But to answer your question, I meant that ministry to homosexual does not need to focus on making a male attracted to a female, but rather helping them overcome any sinful temptation. I cannot snap my fingers and make you attracted to a female, but I can give Biblical counsel on overcoming sinful temptation. The homosexual who becomes a Christian and reads his Bible will have a conviction that they should not live out there former lifestyle. Adultery can be attractive to some, but that does not make it moral. The attraction of acting out with the same sex, like the act of adultery of heterosexual lust, is morally wrong. The good homosexual ministries are helping Christians who deal with the homosexual temptation overcome it should God place that desire in them.
Myles said
Justin it can be hard to correspond with you because you dont always answer all the questions that I ask. I think it is a great extrapolation to say that you understand the genetics of adam and eve based upon the two words “very good”. Like I asked eariler if Adam and Eve were made very good then why did they disobey god?
As for Romans 8:22 or
“We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.”
How does that apply to the degredation of genetic material? Again how can you claim this as truth when it is neither backed by biblical text nor verified by science? Is answers in genesis considered to be canonical now? Are they infallible? This mysterious theory of genetic decline ties up a few loose strings and illogical ramifications of the bible but it is really just a convienient answer completely ungrounded in any facts isnt it?
So you seriously think I should get saved just to see what you are talking about? Should I break up with my boyfriend now or after Jesus takes my sin away? Will I live a lonely existence with no partner as I struggle with attraction towards men or should I enter a loveless heterosexual relationship?
I see no reason why I should try to give up my attraction and love towards men. It hurts nobody(since I dont belive in your god) I have giving you reasons why lying and stealing are wrong. Can you give me even one reason why being gay is immoral EXCEPT saying that your god commands it?
Lastly I am kinda confused by your last sentence “The good homosexual ministries are helping Christians who deal with the homosexual temptation overcome it should God place that desire in them.” So the good minitstries are trying to help somebody overcome something that God placed in them? Isnt this going against the will of god?
I appreciate your answering as many of my questions as possible.
peace out
Justin said
Answers in Genesis is not canon, or course. It is just one Christian answer. Adam and Eve were made very good. In other words, they were made in the image of God. They have a spirit. In a way different than animals, they could relate to their Creator and were made to be leaders of the world under God. Morally, they were made neutral. To answer your question about them disobeying God, the answer is love. For us to truely love God, there must be a choice. Without choice, there is no love. God gave us the ability to choose and we chose to more from morally neutral to being sinful. But God has a plan to bring us back through Jesus.
What is Biblical is that when Adam sinned, which is falled the fall, the earth and creation was no longer “prefect”.
I think you should get saved to get saved, but if you got saved then yes, you would see what I am talking about. When should you stop a particular sin? Well, of course you should stop now. But as Jesus called us Christians to be “fishers of men,” I don’t expect you to be cleaned before you are caught.
It is true that the Christian who leaves homosexuallity has a lot of loose ends. What should happen should they have a life partner? What if they are legally married? What if they still are tempted to stay with them? What about the possibility that they will never love someone of the opposite gender? What if, what if, what if? Do I have all the answers? Of course not. You can receive eternal life now (John 10:10b), but your existence won’t be perfect this side of Heaven. Though Christians may be saved and forgiven of their sins, that does not mean they are free of the immediate consequences of their sin. The inmate who has found Christ and changed is still in prison. Will life be tough still if you come to Christ? I guarantee it. The difference will be that God is with you to help you.
You can name several secondary reasons that something you consider wrong to be so, but the primary reason is that is is unGodly. Goodness is wrapped up in the character of God. Therefore, God’s decision and the very essense of who He is decides right and wrong.
As for your last question, you misunderstood the statement. When I said “The good homosexual ministries are helping Christians who deal with the homosexual temptation overcome it should God place that desire in them,” the desire I referenced was God allowing them to want to be righteous. I was saying that good ministry to homosexuals includes solid Christians helping them to live Godly if that is what the converted person wants.
Myles said
Justin my point about your explanation regarding the DNA of Adam and Eve which you gleaned so easily from answers in genisis has absolutely no basis in science nor is it taken from the scripture. I think it is wrong for you to be presenting it as an established fact when at best it is a hastily made up explanation to tie up a loose end.
If human genes were going through some kind of “devolution” then wouldnt it still be happening? Where is the evidence of it now? The fact that you can extrapolate such a complicated scenario from the words “very good” shows to me how you can twist the most simple statement in the bible to justify your dogma.
I know that you think I should get saved but the truth is I dont think that there is anything to be saved from. I really dont care that you think my behaviour is ungodly because I do not believe in the existence of your god. Do you care to mention any of the “secondary reasons” why being gay is wrong that you mentioned eariler?
You instistance that queer people vie for inclusion into an essentially heterosexist and homophobic institution is harmful advice(look at all the gay people that commit suicide due to religious guilt) and an assault to natural human diversity.
I think that this is one of the main reasons that Humanism is a better philosophy for mankind then monotheism. We respect all the unique and diverse expressions of human diversity and because of this has the best chance for promoting harmony and peace both within an individual and within the society at large.
Justin said
Myles, you said “If human genes were going through some kind of “devolution” then wouldnt it still be happening?” If you are referring to the process of our genetic code getting more and more messed up as the copies of copies of copies of DNA break down, then yes – that is still happening.
You say you do not believe in my God and therefore don’t believe in His moral code. That is irrelevent. He does exist whether you trust in Him or not and He does have a standard.
As far as homosexuals being treated poorly by those who profess Christ, I urge them to not stay with those people. They should instead find loving Christians who will treat them properly even though they know the Bible teaches that homosexual lust and bevevior is sinful.
Myles said
“Myles, you said “If human genes were going through some kind of “devolution” then wouldnt it still be happening?” If you are referring to the process of our genetic code getting more and more messed up as the copies of copies of copies of DNA break down, then yes – that is still happening.”
Interesting. Could you elaborate on this process more? What is the process called? Where is the evidence of this?
“You say you do not believe in my God and therefore don’t believe in His moral code. That is irrelevent. He does exist whether you trust in Him or not and He does have a standard.”
Do you have any evidence for this magical man in the sky who has such an intense interest in my sexual habits
“As far as homosexuals being treated poorly by those who profess Christ, I urge them to not stay with those people. They should instead find loving Christians who will treat them properly even though they know the Bible teaches that homosexual lust and bevevior is sinful.”
I dont remember writing about gay people being treated poorly by those who profess Christ but now that you mention it the bible commands the killing of gay people as this verse from leviticus so clearly reads
“20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
Its time for humanity to stop holding onto supperstitious mythology that advocates such violence and embrace peace for ALL.
Justin said
Hey Myles, as far as DNA, its wiki is helpful for this, though it is a lot to go over. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dna Specifically look at the copying process. DNA does have some backup measures to keep mistakes to a minimum, but obviously as time goes on, more mistakes can be made. Does this have a term? Probably. I jokingly called it de-evolution earlier.
Do I have evidence for God? Sure, click on The Road to God. Hopefully now that I’m off vacation I can add more to that section soon. Why is God interested in sexuality? Well, God is interested in people’s well being, and sex is a large part of the human experience.
Thanks for pointing out that verse in Leviticus. It seems in the early days of the Jews, who this verse was written for, the law was well respected. I haven’t found personally records of many people being killed because of that Jewish law. What about today for the rest of us? Does God still demand punishment for sin? Absolutely. That is why Jesus Christ died. If you are going to point to verses (which I respect, but that gives them more validity if you are pointing to them now), then let me point to some myself. Hebrews 9:22 says “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.” So what did Jesus do? He shed His own guiltless blood. Hebrews 9:12 says “He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.” Jesus paid it all. We can still learn a lot from the book of Leviticus, but we live in the New Covenant (God’s “New Deal” if you will). Luke 22:20 says ” In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
Myles said
Justin, you are trying to conflate two different biological principles. 1) That when two organisms that are too closely related reproduce then the offspring will be more likely to carry harmful recessive genes and 2) the replicating of dna will sometimes happen with mistakes transcribed. This are completely different principles and logically do not fit your model of “devolution”
You seem to be implying that the harmfulness of imbreeding is a recent phenomenom that is only the result of mutation. There is no evidence that supports this idea, in fact mutations can sometimes be benificial to the organism.
You say that you havent personally found records of many gay people put to death under the old laws? Thats not suprising when one takes into consideration that we have very little surviving records of court procedure from that time. But the fact remains, that at one time your god commanded his followers to kill gay people.
You say that sin must be payed for with blood and that Jesus ‘ blood sacrifice “paid” for my sin and no I dont have to be put to death by the follows of your religion. This sounds very illogical and barbaric to me.
Alas, what poor luck for humanity that the gods always demand blood. The Aztecs believed that only with a blood sacrifice could they keep the sun burning and the universe functioning. Your god at one time demanded that gay people be put to death. How many great thinkers were lost? How many artists, creaters, sons, brothers, fathers?
Again I think that this is one of the reasons that Humanism is a better philosophy for mankind. Our salvation can only come from or own powers of reason and compassion not attempting to satisfy the gods unquenchable thirst for blood.
Myles said
I guess this post will never get responded to…